25 Fabruary 1952 Interview With.. 1. On Thursday, 21 February 1952, the writer had an extenfled interview wi The conversation lasted from 3100 PM to approximately :30 PM. The interview was laid on through the Contact Branch and2 introductions were made through, the Now York City Con 0;4 ,.tact Office. No..difficultila@,,w re encountered in this matter* 2. s a professional hypnotist of exceptionally ood re tation. He apparently has other means and has been a pro- 9 fessional engineer and accountant. His apartment is in a deluxe 2 apartment nei hborhood ir@. and is in exceptionally good taste* resides there with his sister* L 3. is about six'feet tall, wears horn-rim glasses,"."- haa a a ong, agressive look, and, physically, is quite impressive. He appears highly intelligent, was court2eous, amiablep and co-opera- ve h t. Elefore getting to cases, the writer fenced with or approximately three-quarters of an hour, talking generally about hypnosis and not disclosing ositive security interests. After establishing in the writer's mind that as competent and thoroughly understood the meaning of soc 2 recy, the writer opened p and discussed positive matters. Set out below are a series of u questions and answers which cover, in substancep the details of the interview wit) Qt What are your experiences in general with hypnotism? A: I have been aprofessional hypnotist for at2 least 15 years. At present, Iam employed on a ver confidential basis two davs a week workin in t work cons y I wor a3 and I work continuously with all types of n s a I am not teaching hypnoti3sm now, but I have taught many individuals hypnotism in the past. -id hypnotism'play in the Q: What part, do you think, d and other show trials by @he USSR @Lnd their satell as Ai In my persoirial opinio is possibly combined with dureq.,3, and possibly drugs, is how the "confes,,3ion3l' were brouglit about. I have long been interested in these trials and I believe it entirely possible to bring these things about through these techniques. It would take a great deal of continuous application 2and study of the individual to produce these results but the enemy has plenty of time and is capable of using any methods. Q: Can you obtain information from an individual, willing or unwilling, by hypnotism? Many of the medical cases I work on are -Definitely, yes. 2 A: involved in obtaining personal,intimate information and through hypnotismp I have been quite successful in obtaining this. If an individual refuses to co-operate with hypnosis, the doctors with whom I work use drugs., always sodium amytal. Q:, Do you think that this system would be useful in obtain2ing information from a recalcitrant, obstinate, and entirely unco-operative individual? At"',Yes,,'definitely.' That is the only way to approach this'',@ type of individual, but even at that you would have to study your individual psychologically and the matter would 2requirt- great skill. All people have to be approached in different manners as far as hypnotism goes, but If you could gain their confidence or at least indicate so, they would clearly- understand you were not hostile to them and your battle would be more than half won4,'' -,@K 2 How far do you think individuals could be controlled by hypnosis? A: 'Ihis Is a v-ery difficult subject. Post-hypnotics will last twenty years and will be very strong If re-enforced from time to time4 tlowevero if direct control is wantedp and particularly without re-enforcement2, perhaps twelve d even then a hours would be the most you could expect aii possibility exists that the person under hypnosis might suddenly be awakened-by some external st:Lmulus. Q: Have you ever had any experience with drugs? A Yes, many times. I h0ave worked with doctors using sodium, amytal and pentothal and have obtained hypnotic control -2- 4 after the drugs were used. In factj many times the drugs o of obtaining hypnotic control. were used for the purpos "new" drugs or Wt-re .iny other drugs used? Do you know any are there any "wonder" drugs tha2t can be used in this busi- nes3? A: I-To. I have known doctors to try other drugs but they do not liave any success .ind almost without exception in my, k, sodium amytal and pentothal are the weapons used. wor If I had to tackle a case, tough and urriilling, I would 2 rely on.sodium amytal. I do not know of any "wonder" drugs. 'I do not believe they exist and none of the psy- chiatriets and doctors I work with use anything but those I have mentioned. Q: Have you ever heard of hypnosis being used in connection with electroshock? Ai2 -No4 I am familiar with the electroshock convulsion and -p coma but I have never attempted to obtain hypnotic con- .@:"-.,,trol thereafter and have never heard of anyone doing this, However, some of my friends who are psychiatrists con- electroshock and I have complete access to ste.ntly use their work. I shall make some experiments along these lines In the near future and when I see you again,, ,le will discuss the results of this, Are there any individuals you might know who would be V worthwhile in contacting along these lin2es? At Offhand I cannot think of anyo e excedt erhaps 'one of the o standin@ d is well ae- the country, thoroii!,,hly iinderstandg drugs an quainted with my work. As far as liypnotists are concerned, 2 I do iiot believe there are five comlietent professional hypnotists in the Ui S. today and I have nothing but con- tempt for the colleg-3 professor who talks about hypnosis. Only the professional who can liandll- liypnosis in front of the public nnd on a large 3calp is ca7pable of really giving advice or information on hy,)notic work. first-rate Wo ou be willing to act as a consultant to this Agency? as fully informed that the writer was making no offers and in no positlon to recruit personiiel. This offer was being made in general terms.) At le55 I feel that we are at war and if I can be of any help whatsoever, I shall be glad to give my time. If you need me on any given case, I will be glad to come. Qi 2 Would you rccept, puoils for private coaching? (Same explanation a3 xbove.) A: Yes. I think I could train ;m Individual or at least give him a substantial background.in.two weeks,, working,out with him three timis a week. Qi Do you have any Ideas that hypnotism coul2d be used as a weapon? A: Yes, I have thought about this often. It could certainly be used in obtaining infornation from recelcitrant people particularly with d rugs 6 Furthermorep it can be used as a morale factor and in addition, it could be used as a 2ra- cruitin(?, source for-i3pecial ty-,ocs of work-. I will explain the lant two. You have large D.P. camps in Europe and Asia. You have to entertpin these p@,ople. A good professional hypnotist is a goo(i entertainei,. Using ma.ss hypnotic methodsp 2 he could driw home thoughts that iiould be of great benefit to our side. Individuals that ti-:? rained coritrol of through hypnotic influence could le conv,-,rted to sti-ong supporters The opposite of this 0 ou f r viewpoint2 through suggestion. of course, would hold true. Furtheremore, along these lines a good hypnotist running hypnotic sliows for entertainment ld plck up a great many subjects, oome of whom might be wou exceptionally good subjects for us. These subjects could e2asily be tabbed and put to our use. Q: Have 3,oi gver 'c,c@.-n able to produce hypnosis witliout an in- dividualln knowledge? At Yes, through the relaxing technique and on rare occasions -"n able to prodtice hy-,nnotisni aL@.ii-nst a p-,nr:son's will. 9 flowevtr, you cannot count on t.hL:, and to attempt to attack an individual who did not want to be hypnotized alone would be almoqt an impossible task. In t-hat type of case, I would se sodium amytal and/or sodium pentothal. u Q: Do you have any special techniques that you think are valuable? At' AU techniques are valuable. I use about eighteen dif- ferent approaches to individuals ranging from fear to anxiety, to deception, etc., etc. All individuals are different and a hypnotist always studies his subjects 2carefullys psychologically and otherwise, before attempting hypnosis with them. Only skilled professional hypnotists have proper training and work at it often enough to be skilled hypnotists. I would be glad to show you all my techniques when we have time to discuss them. There is a peculiar and somewhat dangerous technique in- 2 volving pressure on the carotid artery. Thg technique of using pressure on this artery Is largely a matter of timing. Pressure in the right place cuts off the flow apid coma- of blood to the brain, apparently causing R r like condition -- during this condition, hypnotic cont2rol can sometimes be obtained. The technique is not easy to learn. I have tried It only a few times but it has been successful. Q: How effective are post-hypnotics; over what distances and time can they be effective? At Properly used post-bypnotics will last twenty years. They 2 -y re-enforcement from time to can be made more effective b Post-hypnotics are not affected at all by time or travel or distance away from the person who placed the post hypnotic. As a rule, post-hypnotics should be 100% effective in good subjects and they would certainly be more effective 2 than a person operating under direct hypnotic control, since a person in a hypnotic trance can suddenly be brought out of it for various reasons,particularly after many hours,while a post-hypnotic will always remain strong, Q: Can individuals be made to do things under hypnosis that they would not do otherwise? 2 A: 7his is a nuchly, debated subject and, in my opinion, as a general rule, no individual will do anything against his moral code or upbringing under a hypnotic trance they would not do otherwise. llowev-3r., It should be remembered that by the pro- per type of conditioning and a very intelligent and understan7ding approach using psychology, individuals could be taught to do This would be diff any I- thing including murderp suicide, etc, cult, but I believe it could be done by a careful process of conditioning a per3onrnycliologically while under a hypnotic state, setting a Stage for the act as it were. I do not have much faith in test experiments In colleges because they are, by their very nature, exp eriments or tests. I do belie2ve that you could carry out acts that would be again3t an in- dividiialls moral feelings if th3y were rightly, psychologi- c@Llly coiiditioned. Of coursr-, it iiould not be as -nuch of a probl-@,ti to have an lrnoral pei-sori com-qlt an2 immoral act or a murderer comit a murder, since by their nature they would have no hesitancy to do such a thing in their normal life. I do not kncrd of any drugs that would do this under any cir- cumstances, but I do fee d other 1 that'the f a2mi.U &r cases in which individuals confesood to criifies which they could not have possibly corraitt,ed was 'brought about by h)-p- sychological con- nosis, as I mentioned lefore, and lengthy p ditioning. The question itse3-fl of course, is one th;.it has been debated a great many times t-,ut is difficult to actually arrange a MI)racticall test. Qt Do you have any special techniques or ideas for detecting if.-@ an individual is under hypnosis or not? A: Yes@ I have sov-erhl mothod3 for dttecting this and if I see you again, I wlll go over them in detail with you. There ich I think are very effective. are certain tests that I make wh Along this same line, I also use several methods for detecting when individuals are faking or play acting with me or feigning 2 :hypnosis Q: Do you have any system for detecting good hypnotic subjects,, particularly not along the lines of stage antertai=ents7 A: No particular systent., but tlicrp are certain techniques that I apply in looking for good subjects. Most of these are 2 tasically standard tests and are, undoubtedly, known to you. (Reference was made to standard tests for suggestibility, all known to the writer.) In this connection, when I see you again, I will show you some of the methods I use along these lines, Qt Can hypnosis I-,e broken by anot,lier hylinotist If specific instructions liqve been given to a subject to premnt this'? L: I have been able to do this, but this i3 not easy and re- quires a great deal'of,tiAe,and effortj but'I believe that, ..... ....... t,hit, lljqoot. sny liyin@-)t.ic coni-rol. enil be (lPtect,@(I aiid I)roicen if sufficient "L-Iii-in aiid R careful psychological 2 approach aro used. Q: Doe-n alcohol aggist in the obtainine of in a sul)ject? A: I do not belinve it helps. Tlit--re are rftqtiy other more important aids tO IIYPTIOSIS t2hnn a social di-J.nk or t,,io. The first of these I believe would be anxiety, another would be fear, third might be exhaustion. llowever., in many cases, a a loohol does make individuals more pliabl 2 and In that sense might have some resul.ts. Q: Do yuti have any material i.1i;it you think iriight be of in- tei,est to me along ttiese linns? At Yes. As you know, an individual who has been hypnotized makes a very excellent courier. They c2an I)a given messages while under hypnosis which they themselves do not lrnow and only an indi.vjdual kno,,ting th-3 code can get this message from this courier. Even assu5tinp_, that thg post-hy-pnoti.c corit2-rol could be brokeri or the individual hypnotized, it could still be protected perhaps as follows: A I)erson could be regressed to a certain time and date and then given the message and unless the person who subsequently gained control of 2 the subjee-t regressed the subject to the cor- rect date and time set outo he could not get age. Even more secure would be to move the mess the individual forwardi If he were moved from thirty years of age to thirty-five years of2 age at a given date and time and then given the message, unlosa t-he individual could guess the age, the time, and date in the future, he could not obtain the message. In my opinion, the use of this hypnotic technique is valu- 2 able from your point of viewi Certain it is that by hypnotic control over an individual you can extract Information pro- ba'rly l,etter than any other known way. Furthermore, in good 3ul)jects you can create complete arinl-slas -41iich ghould be helpful. In addition, as I m2ntiotied atove, I thirik ttii!3 technique c'ould be used on a mass scale as I explained both as a morale factor or for propaganda purposes. Some people the Army I kncfw'w-e giving thoufht to these iterms, but whether it can ever be sold at the top-level, I cannot say,, 6 I think it -dld be very valuable4 wo - ------ - ----- I will try when I return from my trip to contact a number of individuals, psychiatrists, and doctors that I know and without discussing any reasons, obtain from them any information that they may have on new drugs or techniques. 2 I do not believe that there are any now drugs and I do not believe there is anything such as the 'wonder" drugs which will produce instant talking when given to an indi- vidual. I believe our hvvnotic caoacities are as good as the and I also believe thstt t""no "wonder" drugs or any other drugs we do not know about. The only thing they have is plenty of time and they care nothing for normal conventions. For matter of record rofessed great in- tereat in this type work stating that in his opinion, it had long been neglected by our Goverrment. He stated 9 he would contribute time and effort If he were called upon to do so and volunteered to assist in any case if he were called upon for assistance.