04, AD -00788R000200520001-3 Approved For Release 2000/ 9q tqJ INSCOM GRILL FLAME PROGRAM SESSION REPORT CLASSIFIED BY:MSG,DAMI-ISH DATED- 051639ZJUL78 NOT RELEASABLE TO FOREIGN NATIONALS REVIEW ON: Approved For Release 200aEWI)~-VQT96-0078r;TO%LLcFj4AME e 6 C R F"F Approved For Release 20dZ 96-00788ROO0200520001-~ /1 )12 d SUMMARY ANALYSIS 4 REMOTE VIEWING (RV) SESSION D-29 1. (S/NOFORN) This report documents a remote viewing session conducted in compliance with a request for information. 2. (S/NOFORN) The remote viewer's impressions of the target are provided as raw intelligence data, and, as such, have not been subjected to any intermediate analysis, evaluation or collation. Interpretation and use of the information provided is the responsibility of the requestor. 3. (S/NOFORN) The protocol used for this session is detailed in the document Grill Flame Protocol, AMSAA Applied Remote Viewing Protocol (S), undated. 4. (S/NOFORN) Following is a transcript of the viewer's impressions during the remote viewing session. At TAB A are drawings made by the remote viewer reference his impressions of the target site. At TAB B is target cuing information provided the remote viewer. At TAB C is MFR from the analyst. 5. (S/NOFORN) An attempt was made to run this session concurrently with session D-28. Session D-28 was cancelled due to noise and interference. Approved For Releasejpa/ A 6CJ6-0 R000200520001-3 GH -- . -1813 PP4-ck~ i,-_--. : 11- f",M r% rlwignr Approved For Release 2000MOM -,.. 1qW1%LpHu. --uu 788ROO0200520001-3 TRANSCRIPT REMOTE VIEWING (RV) SESSION D-29 TIME #14: This will be a remote viewing session for 5 September 1980. On target time is 0830 hours. PAUSE #14: All right #19.5 the time is now 8:30 hours. I have an envelope here. Inside the envelope is a photo of the actual target object that I want you to focus on today. I want you, at this time, to move to the target object. I want you to give me a very brief description of the surroundings of this object. I want you now.to relax, focus on the object in the envelope. PAUSE +03 #19.5 Getting black and white patterns. Just a minute .......... There's a concrete floor. Itls,.-eithet-conprete or asphalt. +05 Metal walls ... uh..very large, large building like..uh.. aircraft hanger ... Very plain. #14: Okay. At this time I want you to focus on the target object itself. I want you to describe this object in detail. PAUSE #19.5: It's got appointed snout-like a nose on it, smooth, very smooth, comes to a point. Just a minute. Something's bothering me. PAUSE #19.5 See a row of ovals. It's a pair of ovals. I don't know. Running away from me-right looks like metal ... sort of got a thick alloy ...... keep Like layers of Vs on top Vs.....something to do with the Vs do. side..angular curved overhangg gray color .... It's a ...... seeing..uh..the V patterns. of one another. A sandwich of the front, front of the object..... +10 #19.5: Hood..it ... hooded windows. Some kind of shielded windows. Very narrow with like blinders over the top made of some kind of metal. It's something to do with this, this nose part of the thing PAUSE Approved For Release 2*~~~~ ~-007fR000200520001-3 Approved For Release 2000/r0_1Vt_1&%.71r V R000200520001-3 #14: Okay. What is the principle function of this object? PAUSE #19.5: Very powerful ... uh..it's ..uh..it's got a lot of power that..uh..puts some form of power out in a radiating-pattern. very hard, very strong. It1s..I see like-just a minute. Drives like a automobile, only it's..uh..got no steering wheel. Rides rough on the outside. But,.it's ..uh.. soft, soft on the inside. Some kind of vehicle. #14: Okay. Where do the personnel that operate this vehicle do these functions..uh..in other words, where do they sit. Where are they located within, around this vehicle? PAUSE +15 #19.5: See like..uh..boxes or compartments. Uh ... there's like shielded, shielded compartments, very thick, high-back seats. It's a four, four people for operations. Pri.. primary operator is..uh..front left ...... and his, his backup is front right. There's a different, different place for the other two. I, I'm having trouble. I see all four people, but I see like plates or boxes in between. #14: Okay. Focus on these other people and describe what type of actions they perform in this vehicle. #19.5: See one of 'em has got a..got his hands on levers or something. Handles. Got his hands on two handles. Three, uh, 3 handles there. Got his hands on two of these. Looking through..like..uh..rubber eye piece. Like..uh.. some kind of rubber bulb or something like that. Uh... Something very heavy over, over his right shoulder. I don't know what it is. It's got like slots down the side. 0 ... Another..uh..another man is with him, but he's sitting by this thing looks like..uh..egg carton.or something. It's got bumps like a egg carton. Very large. Sits..uh.. +20 sideways in the seat. This seat thing that Folds down . Just got an impression there's a fifth person, but he's like in charge. Uh..I don't know where he's at. Hels..uh.. these two are in charge of..uh..uh..some, some kind of..uh.. some kind of power apparatus or something. Thing puts out..uh..something ... puts out some kind of power. #14: Describe this, this apparatus which assists in doing the function of this object. PAUSE Approved For Release 2000/0,.M,OQr-.armx,~-,,7-,R8ROO0200520001-3 TNI~. &-% r-10 ^ 0 =9 Approved For Release 2V0010814.1.,',) W.PWTINW-VII I 88ROO0200520001-3 #19.5: Uh..I keep, keep trying to see what it is, and I keep getting bright blue pulsing flash..very incandescent blue pul- pulsing flash. PAUSE +25 Just uh ..like the point.of a shiny p1,n magnified very large and bright blue-white flash, pulses on and off ... big, thick..uh.. thick..uh..drilled hard block steel thick block..uh..uh..block of something very hard metal of steel alloy, grooves, I see groovesq but I can't see if they're inside or outside. Something looks like side mounted tubeso very small ... like..uh..hydraulic shock absorbers or something in a car banded together and..uh.. coming out to the right angle from the side of the block. :Some block thing. Everything looks padded. Must have got a coating of padding on it or something. Some soft, ,fibrous substance looks like padding ....... It's electronics there too..uh..it's stacked in a metal rack very small packages..uh..4 uh by a 8 inch face, four elements just stacked. See, two stacks an-another apparatus to the side looks like a TV screen. Osbilloscop,e of some kind It's-uh-some kind of indicator scope. Very compact. A lot of solid state..uh..I.C's... very, very sensitive. This directs the power, I think. Uh..guy with..uh..guy with the levers is ... doing something there, I think. He ..uhi. manipulates but...buttons~presses buttons. Also ... uh ........ get a hot feeling for a minute, I don't know. Don't know if that's associated with this target. ....See many tubes, like, not..large, tubes like ..... like copper tubes~ pipes, something .................... That's all I get. #14: Okay. I have no further questions at this time. Anything else you'd care to add? PAUSE +30 #19.5: Uh...I keep getting a silhouette outline; like a upside down boat with..uh..upside down boat with an oval pattern. But no windows. That's all., I don't know what it is. #14: Okay. We'll pause now. All right Flight Control we're ready now. Okay #19.5 1 want you to back and focus on the operator who was handling the levers and was at the station with the oscilloscope. I want you to try to get more detail on the functioning and the, the reason behind the oscilloscope and the controls at this position. 3 Approved For Release 2000/np~ft7r~=RTM788ROO0200520001-3 Approved For Release 2VOO/08 " Q I f t5ts R000200520001 -3 IM-11 F7.%-VWF%bWu +35 #19.5 Uh ... picture-this...uh..scope like-thing is a picture- and I see color, but I can't, I can't find anything. But, imposed on the picture ..uh..is a set of-two sets- set of like hazy red lines intersecting on top of one another in a circle, and they move-when he-when he pushes buttons. I see these switches on a computer terminal. It's a computer keyboard-like a minnie keyboard. It's got a, some kind of a bar-two bars in front of it, that he rests his hands on so that his fingers can touch the keys only when he wants them to. It's a special keyboard. It's not like a typewriter. It's different, and it's got like command keys. Looks very much like the same kind of- the same kind of design function like-like the..uh..uh.. like the lunar module-the manned lunar ....... module, but it's-uh-this is different. This isn't..uh..this isn't any kind of a space vehicle. This is something different. It's directing, oh~ what appears to be an apeture device of some kind that rotates, rotates to a azimuth. It's indicative an azimuth from a center line device. He knows9 he knows the center line in this, this gives azimuth. There's another black-no-think it"s gray, gray button with appears to be the word elevation or something an it. It's some abbreviation for elevation, I think. There's a larger red buttons. These buttons are square, by the way. Larger red button near the some-some kind of a interlock action button of some kind. It, it generates an action. I get different impressions for color on the screen. Like different ways of sensing-Ilm-get like an infra-red picture one minute; I get a different picture of the other; almost like a camera picture. Pictures I'm getting-when I look at the screen or tanks..uh..heavy vehicles, armored vehicles -some mock-up targets. It's like it's-they're targets of some kind. There's a very strange, there's a pitch and yaw type element to this control system which appears to be strange for a vehicle. #14: Turn your volume up a little (talking to analyst). +40 #19.5: This is a vehicle with a pitch and a yaw control This is really weird. Secondary backup power systems there. There's a manual override system for the computer. The computer is very small, black box; main part of the computer is only got a light to show that it's on. It's like a cassette load or something there for a loading system. Shielded, very well shielded. Like with metal. Almost like it's physically pr,otected,versus electronically. Sharp, shock absorbing-paddedo.uh.. he ' he, he's controlling some kind of targeting. I get this feeling like he can access at least 3 targets at one time, and instantly respond to this key pad system. Very, very well protected area though. Q Q11, a Q C1 Approved For Release 2000/081UOVj"UVW"Vt R000200520001-3 Approved For Release 2000/081Q~-Wii;~"'V_66- M8ROO0200520001-3 "I f 41, - 11 ~. t.. #19.5: There's-controls that go from this system to the driver ,%wool as well which has to do with..uh ..... #14: Flight Cont-ro, I can't hear you.(Talking to the analyst) #19.5: Just a minute. Hang on a minute. #14: Control room-control-yeah, turn your volume up. (Talking to the analyst) PAUSE (#14 receiving EEI from analyst) #14: Okay #19.5 9 F1 ve got to -get another - paper- full oF notes here. #19.5: 1 think I've been disturbed here by this siren. #14: Okay. Will do. (talking to the analyst.) Okay #19.5, we 11 pause now for debrief. PAUSE #14: We're now ready for debrief. Okay. #19.5: Uh ... I guess-I'll.,,'I'll draw my first, very first impression. Page 1. 1 was..uh..like looking at this..uh..what appeared to be some form of upside down boat, and it was sideways to me-going away from me, and it had like a very heavy metal overhang. It's kind of like this. And, there was like ovals which I at first thought were windows, but they're not. It's just a pattern down the side. There was five of these. And, then --- thatq we'll call that A, and then the second impression I got was of a nose, believe it or not. Just this --- like ..... this bullet shape snout piece that had form to it. I can't draw this very well. It's just like a pointed snout. I kept-had to call it a snout, for some reason. It was in some way associated to A. And, then I had an impression of ----- this one another thing ..uh.. ..Oh! I know what it was --- call it C. I had an impression of looking sideways at something that 'went like this, and there was like a, a very thin, narrow glass window. Almost like this. Very thick. Almost prismatic, and.directly over it was shielding. Some form of shielding, and almost looked like an eye. It was a shielding, very heavy shielding around it, and I think this might have been the upper part of the snout. That's why I called it a snout; because it looked very much like an eye on this side, and it was that kind of an impression that I was seeing, but it was very definitely a very narrow dented like window. Approved For Release 200 788R000200520001-3 Approved For Release 2000/081ailm 1W Q!460~ 788ROO0200520001-3 #31: Aha ... okay, along with this you have something about Bs; you said the Bs. #14: No, no, Vs. #31: Vs. Okay, the Vs then. #19.5: Ohl The Vs, okay, yeah. #31: V patterns okay, have something to do with the nose? #19.5: Yeah. I had a pattern. Let me call it D. #31: Sandwicht sandwich of Vs. #19.5: Yeah, sandwich of Vs. #31: Okay. #19.5: Okay, whatq what I had was I had, it was like layered Vs; one on top of another. Because I was trying to get inside of this thing to see what it was, and I got an impression of this ..... I'll show you what I got an impression of here. I got an impression of.....this kind of thing, in which, now, this is a very thick shield of metal. I, I kept getting this word shielding going through my mind you know, all the time, armored shielding like, and inside of ,this were these V patterns ...... like this. This is like a cross-section, okay, and inside of that was another piece of shielding-this is a lot larger scale than it actually is. This had Vs ... it was like..uh..cardboard! It's almost like layers of cardboard; one on top of the other with like the cardboard honeycomb in between it. It just kept going like this in sheets and it was like 5 layers of this .... and this, this is a cross-section. #31: Do you have a feel for what part of the object it was? Is that ..... #19.5: The front ... #31: The front? #19.5: Very definitely the front of the object. Somewhere up in here-see, thisthis is looking around the side, okay. I should put that arrow there. It..kind of goes around to the side, and this, this thing here was somewhere up in front. #31: Okay. Approved For Release 2000/08/OZC=- - RPOO0200520001-3 --IC7 U.. N,71- % Lim& 11 Approved For Release 2000108107 #19.5: And, I got the feeling that this, this snout, okay was also somewhere up in-like up in here-this area..uh.. front top. And this was, part of, part of C. #14: Okay. At this time why don't we turn the tape over? #19.5: Okay. #14: Weare now ready to continue with the debrief. #19.5: Okay. Page 2. #31: Okay. Let's see, going through the notes sandwich of Vs; one on top of the other to do with the front of the object; hooded window,-shield,, but very narrow metal blinders over the top; something to do with nose.....uh... .okay... okay, then we moved, #14 keyed you to 'what~~.is;the principle function of the object. #19.5: Right. #31: Okay. Maybe just some.words would help here to start with. You had this feeling of very powerful ..... #19.5: Yeah. Oh! I got a ...... #31: Okay. #19.5: Okay, I got a picture of a, like a blow up of the point of a needle and it was very shinny and I kept getting recurrent V white flashes, and I'll show you what the flashes look like. I call this a needle be-I'd seen a blow up of a needle before, and that's what this reminded me of. I'm going to try and get this as best I can here. Itwas like looking at the end of a needle or straight pin that's blown up, and in this case it was like polished aluminum or something. It had a ... very definitely was reflecting light like offf of it. That kind of thing. And, you could see thisq this, like the spun marks in the metal going this wayq and then I was getting a ... uh.. like a white, a really incandescent white area with a pattern of 4 blue flames coming out like this; and this was pulsing, and..uh..like this, and this kept pulsing. That's the, the power that I was feeling. #31: Okay. Form of power outt and radiating pattern very strong, okay; you said, I see from #14's notes here, you say, I see cement! Uh ... but, earlier in the session... the very acquisition phase you had cement or asphalt. Approved For Release 2000/0910T-,Q-~PMP"PO0788ROO0200520001-3 1,1'i--!C~p 9 N I.- I I Approved For Release 2000/08/0-/'---~.tlA-ROPSG~M188ROO0200520001-3 #19.5: Yeah. That was like a flooring or something. I was giving a quick and dirty of the surroundings of the object. #31: Okay. Right. Okay, then my notes and #14s pick up and say drive like an auto but has no steering wheel. #19.5: Right. I don't, you know, I don't, it has a dashboard - looks,like an automobile, but there's no steering wheel there. No-you know, no column or anything like that. But, the seats, the seats really unique. Here, let me sketch that in, if I can. This will be kind of like-from the side. I got an impression of something here; this came around. That would be -the dash like. The wraparound dash type affair, and back here would be this . ...it's like very thick, very thick seat arrangement. It's almost like the seats were armor plated. That kind of affect. They're extremely heavy. And, some kind of controls or something right here. And, this was like dials here, and the ceiling kind of came down like this; came around, and I got a feeling like there was bent vents or something here. And, there was something else that protruded out of here, okay, and it was like one of the, maybe it didn't protrude out of the front itself, but hung down to the side or something. It was like a camera type thing. Some kind of camera type thing. That's literally about it. That was "WW, on the left side, and the side piece over here, it was very well paneled with padding type affair. You know. This, this snap in padding. Very heavy padding; almost like insulation ........ and seat belt. Very modern type interior. This is all plating-up in here, black. Something like that. I know ..... my drawing is lousy. #31: Umm .... actually, I'm sitting here rather impressed with it. Ha, ha, ha, it's pretty damn good perspective ....... #19.5: It's very clear, very clear in my mind, you know, when I was watching it. This was like very heavy plate. Almost like it was cut from steel block. #31: Okay. Now, you're talking about what, the, what you're sketching in is the rear of this seat. What is supposed to be the rear of the seat. #19.5: Yeah, yeah, right. This kind of affect. #31: Okay. When we go back-you've done this in pencil, so when we go back and do this in ink, I would like you to label all those things. Now, I have a couple of questions. 8 CraME7 Approved For Release 200vivwjmt.%w-%rrm4&ww-UO788ROO0200520001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/0 Rol NPUR000200520001-3 #19.5: Wait a sec-this is a, a steel wall right there, by the way. That's a steel wall. #31: Okay. Okay. That's a steel wall behind the seat. #19.5: Yeah. Right. And, this is steel plate up here. #31: Okay. What you're doing now is drawing some.lines on the above and apparently forward of the dash. #19.5: Yeah"of the dash, right. That's very much like what the driver, you known that whoever's operating this thing by driving, and this right here is some kind of control panel. #31: Okay. And, that's by the, the right arm. That's the knob with the bumpers on it. #19.5: Yeah, yeah; it's over here too. It's like dual handed controls or something. #31: You have one on the left side then, as well. #19.5: Yeah. #31: Okay. All right. #19.5: And..uh... #31: All right. Is there anything more? How about ... did you have a feeling for the method by which the person that sits in this seat would move into and out of this seat. #19.5: Through some kind of a hatchway, which would be over here. There I s a hatch. like, right here. Then , there I s another wall then the other guys over here on the right. So---well there's actually more than one hatch to this area. I get a feeling like there's .... let me lightly stencil them in here with dotted lines, I got a feeling like there was a hatch hereq like in between his position and the co-driver.... #31: Okay. So, that you have- you've drawn that's in the foreground on the right side of the left-hand seat. #19.5: Right. It'st well, it's right next to the seat back. #31: Next to his elbow back? #19.5: Yeah. #31: Okay. 9 Approved For Release 2000/08kno-~r'C'CnT788ROO0200520001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/ Q8ROO0200520001-3 44.) #19.5: And, you see it's like, where that wall, that partition here is. See, this wall comes all the way down here like that.... #31: Oh~ I see, okay. All right. So, it's in the wall. #19.5: It's in the wall, yeah. #31: Okay. So it's in ex--it's a hatch that goes to the rear of the seat, and is located in between..uh..pos8ibly two positions. #19.5: Right, yeah. Well, I'll do a little sketch down here. It's very easy. Like you have two seats; this being the dash area, okayq and you have the wall back here, the hatch is here, and then there,s a hatch in the floor, but it's a lot smaller. Like..uh..right here, and then I got a feeling like therels..uh..possibly an overhead hatch, but, it's off-centered someway. Like here. #31: Okay. #19.5: You know. It would be..uh..up here like this. #31: Okay, okay. #19.5: About 3 hatches to that compartment. #31: Okay. Now, you just..earlier when we were trying to hatch hash this out here, before you did the overview-the overhead view, you mentioned.... something that may be separating the two compartments. #19.5: Uh..this, this compartment ---- #31: Or, did I understand you ..... #19.5: ...this compartment from the other that the other two people are in.. #31: Okay. #19.5- Okay. Very clearly..uh ... the driver and the co-driver I think are in the same compartment. Looks like a box up forward. #31: Okay. #19.5: And then to the rear, I get a feeling like to the rear of them, above to the right just a little bit off to the center line of this vehicle is where the other two people are. Approved For Release 2000,"Oadm F"QM0788ROO0200520001-3 K9 L: T=Tm Approved For Release 2000/081U7 5700788RO00200520001-3 #31: Okay. #19.5: This being thep the center line, right here. #31: Okay. Well, good. #19.5: Is that detailed enough? #31: That's...I111 tell youo that's, that's a work of art. A veritable work of art #19.5: Okay. What else? #31: Okay, okay. Now, that was in response to the question ..uh..where do the, where are the personnel which operate, where are the personnel located which operate the vehicle. Okay. #19.5: Right. #31: Okay.You had them in the boxes or compartmentst and you broken the overall object down into consisting of just what you said, was just two general compartments one forward and low, the other one is up, rear, and to the right. #19.5: Right. One other thing you should be aware of-there are, there are pedals in this thing. #31: Okay. #19.5: Very large., black pedals ............. but it ain't a bicycle, ha, ha. #31: Ha, ha, ha. Okayq now, let me just ask you some questions regarding sketch 3 here, overview. #19.5: Aha. #31: Ummm.... is the dash, first of all, we have the compartment as being one entire area, not segmented in any between the two positions, is the dash, as it moves,around front, did you have a feeling of it, that it was a one continuous system or was it segmented two identical systems; one for each position. #19.5: No, no, No, no. This, the one on the left is a primary; the one on the right is a secondary or an auxiliary to the one on the left. The one on the right appeared to have everything that the one on the left had, but it, it wasn't really there. It was just a wire assemble; like a wire assembly . off of the main dash. You know. All the dials are there, and all the controls are there, and every thing else, but the guts to it weren't there. It was like Approved For Release 2000/08/Mr'i CJAOI~Qf~90-9m~788ROO0200520001-3 A Approved For Release 2000/08"1 0 4"A =92000200520001-3 0 A-- #19.5: ... the whole ... the real controller assemblyt you knout, the electronics you don't see ... it's all on the left- hand dashl and the guy on the right is just..uh..it's like one of these learn to drive type things. You know.. #31: Okay. #19.5: .... where the instructor's got all the real controls, and the student's only allowed to use ...... #31 He's, he'sp he just taps into the same, the main system. So you're sayingp essentially, the main control layout is on the left.... #19.5: It's on the left, right. #31: ... left position, and that the one on the right is just tapped over to the left. It does not have its own unilateral system capable of operating by itself. #19.5: Yeah ... no, no, no., and I really, I think that the one on the right is..uh..is very seldom ever, if it's used at all, very seldom ever used. It'd be an emergency backup like system. #31: Okay. #19.5: Probably, possibly a shunt to manual control versus electronics. #31: Okay. All righti Now, moving through here-moving right along, you have, as we said, in my notes thoughq I'm going back over to catch up. ..front leftq primary operator; front right, backup operator; different place for other two. In #14's notes here there is the comment that.... (whistling) primary operator in front left; co-operator in front right... one has his hands on levers or handles and there are three. #19.5: Uh...no, that's the two guys in the back compartment. Okay. #31: Okay. That's right, that's right. Cause now looking at my notes~ I see you have a different place for the other two; you see all four, but you see plates or boxes in between. #19.5: Right. It's like I was looking through the walls of the boxes or plates, compartments in this ..... #31: Okay. #14 directed you to focus on the other, the other personnelf and what they do. And, that's ...... all right now in my notes I see that's where one has levers and handles. #19.5: Right. Right. &= Approved For Release 2000/06MENUMM ~MR000200520001-3 Approved For Release 2000/00inj~=jMMIMW omnni)200520001-3 #31: Okay. Let's run a quick through to my notes here, to refresh your memory. Levers, handles, three handles, looks through rubber eye piece like a rubber bulb. Heavy..... somethingo heavy over right shoulder with slots down the side. #19.5: Yeah. Let me, let me sketch this because it's going to answer a lot of your questions, I think. Uh ... okay ... there's a heavy ... see if I can get this in perspective now... that..fair job ..the other one is ... a heavy block type arrangement with..an additional piece that comes out like this from the side...something like this, and there's like ..like one of those big rubber eye socket type pieces on the-this sideq like this. I had the feeling like there was ... two slots that came down the side for some reason ...... and ... the operator ... I'm going to ... do this.-I'll put the seat in here very lightly because the seat will block out most of the view so I'll dot, dot the seat in. This is like the head part of the seat, and the back of the seat, and then this was actually inside of a .... very narrow type area. This being the roof of the, the vehicles and also very padded and then, right up here in front of the seat was like a... like a control panel with a flat section built into the front, and this was a key pad. There's like these double bar type things that come out..this,,,that you rest the heel-your heels of your hands on it so you can lean on it, and still manipulate the keys...and there was like a row, double row of boxes like this, and I said there was like four boxes to a row. And..I just got a feeling like there, there's some kind of an electronics theret you know; IC type of electronicst and I got a feeling like there was a blank here and a screen, and this, this pictographic screen had the capacity of producing more than just a camera type picture. Superimposed of the screen I saw a double ... red line that was overlayed and like sitting up over that was a very light circle, and then there was ... like, I got a feeling like this was some kind of a minnie computer of some sort here, and all it had. was an indicator light. #31: Okay. You have,that in the upper left. #19.5: Upper left. Yeah. I'll draw arrows to all this stuff. That was blank, and there was some kind of, of command squares here of some sort, you.knowt great buttons glowing green, and blue, and white. Large activator type button here. It was red, and, theng of course, the key pad all different buttons; and over here other forms of electronics like radios and intercoms- and stuff like that. And, this was all like..uh..sitting in front of this seat. Down here there was some kind of a ... console type thing that had like a lover," coming out this way ..... and then' had double lever Approved For Release 2000/08/0~=RQ gaq788ROO0200520001-3 Approved For Release 2000/=QZ-,'rX;,jAApyf9 -3 ,,,zOP788ROO0200520001 .#19.5: ..this way ..... That's the 3 leavers I was.talking about. And, I, I don't know .... what that is.....but, then back over here I get a feeling like there was like hydraulic tubes, copper hydraulic tubes coming down like this ..... and some coming out running down the side like this; ate* ... and, then back in behind this seat, the other guy's seat, was like this........these are also very heavily armored seats... the other guy I s seat came back like this. Back here and he had some form of .... looks like a switching panel or something up here. But, down here, which is very interesting down here was kind of like a thing that went likathis, and it was like .... did you ever see the inside of an egg cart? #31: Aha. #19.5: Looked like rows of eggs, like this. And there was also a lot of, you know, padding up in here; the snap on type padding, snap up type padding. #31: Now, are you putting that in the background? #19.5: Yeah.It's in the background. And, there was, oh, there was ........,there was some kind of ....... I don't know how to describe it ...... almost like a walkway right he.re ..... like, you go down in thereq you know, and right here was the, the front wall looking down through this, this flooring like. That's the front wall where the garbage compartment is, okay. His seat was up there like that. #31: Okay. You're sketching that down, and in the corner between the two seatsv okay. #19.5: Yeah.and then there's .some other kind of ...... went like this ...... I don't know how to draw this. #31: That's fine. That's fine. Ummm ...... #19.5: Ohl He had a ..... he had also a vent type hanging up here. #31: Okay. Nowo in sketch 4 you're putting that in ... forward in the background of the left hand position. #19.5: Yeah. It's right up over the..uh.. #31: Left on the sketch. #19.5: Yeah. Thisq this bent thing is right up over the dash panel that he's got. #31: Okay. Approved For Release 2000/ Vr . "MIN Approved For Release 200010-.,- ib=Q ItMR000200520001-3 #19.5: Yeah. Something he can look through I guess. Now-0, #31: Okay. #19.5: There's something else behind this block, but, I couldn't ..I tell you, 1. just couldn't get anything out of this block of metal except the grooves. #31: Yeah. Let me ask you a few questions now, since we're finishing up on sketch 4. The..uh..did you have a perception of the function of the egg carton type thing? #19.5: None at all, but I did ... I got a feeling after awhile after looking at this,,..'this,bare' this dash panel up here, okay, that this was some form of a fire control center, okay. #31: Okay. #19.5: Ohl There's something else really strange out it. I s- could swear I could distinctly see a button that said elevation on it. And, I saw,,and then I saw a button that says..uh..I can't remember what I said it said.. #31: Ummm .... you said it looked like it was an abbreviation for elevation. #19.5: Yeah. That-I remember that ones but ... pitch and yaw. I saw pitch and yaw which really blew me away, because I wouldn't...this is not a space vehicle, but, you know, that's what I associate it with, but it, it actually said pitch and yaw on these buttons, you know. These gray buttons. #31: Aha, and do you have a feeling from where those buttons were? #19.5: Yeah. Right up here on the key pad. #31: Okay. So, that's in front of the left hand position, on the key pad, there. #19.5: Yeah. Right. And ... uh... #31: Okay. Let me whip through my notes here, before we discard or move on to the next session-next..uh..sketch. #19.5-. Okay. #31: Okay. (Garbled)see grooves..C2n't tell if inside or outside ..side mounted tubes; small like hydraulic shocks on a car banded together coming out at right angles from the block thing. Approved For Release 2000/08/07,-; CIA="QWCW8R000200520001-3 W Approved For Release 2000/08 '7 r- nn-70 WRQQQ200520001-3 #19.5: Yeah. Okay. That's-I'm going to have to draw this separate without screwing up that picture there. #31: Okay, well, all right, well, let's see if we can still do something with 4. #19.5: Okay. #31: Everything looks padded, soft fibrous padding packages. Now, I picked up on the intercom that you had the 4 inch by 8 inches faces 4 to a stack, two stacks. Is that- #19.5: That's right there. That's in ... #31: Okay. That's on the right side of the- #19.5: -of the console panel. #31: --panel, panel. Got something looks like a..uh.. oscilloscope or TV screen- #19.5: Yeah. That's right in center of the panel. #31: Okay. Now, later on in the session when we had you move back to that panel you said that what-you discussed what it was that you perceived viewing in that screen or on that oscilloscope- #19.5: Aha, that's what I was going to draw next. #31: Okay. Why don't you do-that? #19.5: Okay. I'll do that before I do-do you want me to do the shock absorbers looking things first? Or do you want me to do that first? #31: Why don't you do the screen type of latch up first. #31: Okay.. What I perceived.. " on the screen, I keep wanting to say it's a ... picture, and I did get vivid pictures ... of tanks, mock-ups, concrete structures, armored vehicles. You know. Like up on a rise or hill or next to a bluff. I was getting this flashing images but I also got other things like infra-red images, and things that were really strange. I got the in-like the infra-red image I got looked like this. It looked like the screen was divided in half. The bottom half being darkq and then the upper half was like a ... tank vehicleg but it was built like with blocks, okay. Like all different blocks of-things like this. Like one of these computer gamest okay. That kind 16 rml~ -.97-00,88RO00200520001-3 Approved For Release 20VViVL!!y, -1, 3~~IFQ Approved For Release 2000/08 7 r-IA-P R000200520001-3 #19.5: of thing. It was built like out of blocks, squares. #31: Okay. #19.5: And, there was a-they were colored squares, okay, and like these squares here would be red, and these squares here would be...blue, and the rest of it would be like green, and then lay-overlaying on that was a cross-hatch red line inter- sectedo like this; these were moveable, these would go left and right .... up and down, and then superimposed over that was a very light circle, and it wasn't a perfect circle. It was like an oval-egg shaped oval, and that, it would also move sideways, and up and down, and that's what I perceived like infra-red. #31: Okay. Butq did the oval move independent of---- #19.5: Independent of the cross here lines, the intersecting cross here lines. #31: Okay, all right. Okay. That's sketch 5. #19.5: And, the, the other pictures were,clear, preciseq like camera photos, you know. Like a camera looking through a TV monitor or something. #31: Okay. All right. Did you have any other type of feelings associated with this .... screen? You've discussed two different types but you said like and other things. I just wanted to make sure , did you have any other peculiar ... #19.5: Yeah, I got~ I. got brief glimpses of pronounced, you know, superimposed numericsv letters and white, white,,,you know, like computer printout, and I'm not sure, they were coming so quick,-I'm not sure if they were actually superimposed over the pictures or if they were just there alone without the pictures being there. You know. Like a multi-purpose screen. #31: Aha. #19.5: That's... #31: Okay. Why don't we label 5 here with the .... uh ... well we can do that later. That's all right. We're going to all of 'em later, anyway. Go back through and label (garbled) #19.5: Label lem, yeah. #31: Okay, so, now for sketch 6. 17 Approved For Release 20on-", -~1---r,'IlLl5lrMM0788ROO0200520001-3 kd- 1-1WEA's t.. Approved For Release 2000/08/07% 0"A77OPMT-MMM0200520001-3 I I I;- - - #19.5: Now you want the shock absorbers? #31: Yes. Now, the things associated with dat da, da, da, da, umm ..... I had it here, .... #19.5: Big block. #31: Side mounted tubes, small like hydraulic shocks on a car, banded together, coming out at right angles from the bla-block thing; not the black thing, the block thing. #19.5: Well, there was a ... okay, there was lik,&a,piece that came out like this .... and fastened to this were the, these large hydraulic, not large. They were actually very small when compared to the block itself...uh..like this, and these went up into a........,up into some kind of a ...... I don't know what to call it. I call it banded together, because it looked like it was a band that went like this around these. This kind of affect. Like they held them in place, you know. And, there was some black form here, and this was like some kind of sealant of some kind. Just like real heavy duty shocks. I don't know what, what this (garbled) and the same time I got a, I got this pattern. Now, you're familiar with this pattern. So, when I get it it I s usually a jar top or something a eDneentYic circle pattern like this. Usually means a jar top, some kind of screw top. I was getting that superimposed on the black -the back of the block. #31: Okay. All right. Now, this ist am I correct when I ask that this block that you have drawn, is that block which is located sort of overhead and to the right, in sketch 4? #19.5: Yes, yes. #31: In the center of sketch 4. #19.5: Right the only reason why I didn't draw this on sketch 4 is it would have messed up the whole perspective of ..... #31: Sure, sure, okay. #19.5: Oh, forgot my grooves down the sides. #31: Da, da, da.... (garbled) right angle to the side of the block everything's got (garbled) small packages ..... #19.5: Okay. #31: Okay. Is Approved For Release 200QL98M,7,,:-C=-00788ROO0200520001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/ P P-75-u~M88RO00200520001-3 #31: Okay. Going through'the notes, let me see, we did that.. okay, well, that's about it. 1, the only thing left other than this hydraulic thing, shock absorber type thing that you're talking about .... you had..umm secondary backup power systems... #19.5: Yeah, just your standard ionfed black metal boxes sitting on the floors, you know, bolted behind the seats in various sundried places. #31: Okay. Man-manual override systems for computer..... #19.5: Right. That's what I think those levers were ... some kind of a manual override system. #31: Okay. Small black box with only an on light. That's on the sketch, okay, I think. #19.5: Right. #31: You had this feeling of cassette systems load.intq. shock absorbing padded ..... #19.5: Yeah, no, it's, I had like at I got an impression of some kind of a cassette insert type thing on this panel. I don't know what it was. You know. It's like when you want to give pre-commands of something you would just load it in with a cassette. Rather than wasting your time talking to this machine all day. #31: Okay. And you had the feeling that it could access up to 3 target at one time. #19.5: Yeah. The guy sitting in that seat could access 3 targets. He may be only firing on one, but he could be accessing 3 at the same time. #31: Okay. Well, that's it. Before we go back over and, and well, we'll do the sketches in black ink and label, make the appropriate labels and everything, which I'll walk through you uith...youhave anything more you want to add regarding the target object? #19.5: Nope. That's all. #31: Your feelings about it. #19.5: It's some kind of a fire control vehicle. It's very well armored and very modern and very potent. Other than that, no, I don't have anything to add ........ So, we'll end then. 19 Approved For Release 2000/08/0r&E"4fZ R000200520001-3 ,_, IL -0 jXQY /I CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0200520001-3 2000/08 ( CROSS /41 wow) 1/604 fgVVr MIP O,c 0VVFC7- Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0200520001-3 PATTM,3 PAAr OF C,. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0200520001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0200520001-3 x1f Approv6 r Release 2000/08/0 CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0200520001-3 ~140 P-Oftc- co TV/I .1 & al VEX 5C047- 7D Approved For Release 2000/08/07 CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0200520001-3 SE4 r Approved For Release 2000/08/0 CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0200520001-3 lie/ so P40 ~ 0 e's", A5 Sep )0, CP r j I)i,;% L kvy/Okimi7cm AgAVILq 14 PA 9-8 A:) AfO of, TAP", (5Acx IL f "SIT 77K AcQ i r7o,) Do%,j&s Do. LOEX Approved For Release 2000/08/07 CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0200520001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0200520001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0200520001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0200520001-3 9 t.n -M 'M . 1~ V$ S Id w i~ 9 V2. i 90 a I i Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0200520001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/0( CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0200520001-3 OID goo a Wa 190,71 SJ COO V COO Eo lao I 11 1 gill AIM4 OC AC-Ttoj~o MR 4CAf kc-YIMAI-D. 4 Approved For ffAase 2000/OSW.O,,Va,&PP96-00788ROO0200520001-3 SG1A Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0200520001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0200520001-3 e*t romp 0 r- Approved For Release 2000/9gva Q100788ROO0200520001-3 MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD SUBJECT: Session D-29 Targeting Data 5 September 1980 1. (S/NOFORN) This was #01's first session against this target, the OPSEC portion of Project 8003 (sub-Project 8003d). This was #01's first session against any aspect of Project 8003 since 25 June 1980. Prior to that date, #01 had performed four sessions against 6003a (CCC25, CCC33~ CCC41, CD02) using diverse targeting methods (geo coordinates, aerial photo of target facility) and one session against 8003b using geo coordinates (CD63). 2. (SAOFORN) It must be noted that sub-Project 8003d is an otherwise unrelated OPSEC oriented aspect of Project 8003 which is directed against acommensurate piece of allied equipment as opposed to the primary.hostile equipment. It must also be noted that considerable time had elapsed since #01 had had any RV involvement whatsoever with this Project, and was unaware prior to this session of any contiguity/relationship (however marginal) between this session and those in which he was involved earlier. In fact, #01 was unaware of who the project analyst was for this session until communications between the analyst and interviewer was established 30 minutes into the session (see para 4 below). 3. (S/NOFORN) #01 was only informed by interviewer at session start that he (the interviewer) had in his possession an envelope (8-211x1l11 size brown manila w/official markings) containing a photograph of the actual target object. #01 was instructed to focus on the target object at this time (time of session start). The interviewer was not aware of the t7r-get object; neither through verbal communication nor by having seen the target photograph prior to its insertion into the envelope by the analyst. The interviewer was cognizant only of the written EEI which were provided him immediately prior to the session (see TAB B), this report. 4. (S/NOFORN) The session was monitored by the analyst, who was located in a separate room of the facility. The analyst was cognizant of the target object but was/is not cognizant of finite details. On several occasions, in- session guidance was attempted by the analyst. However, due to the analyst's unfamiliarity with the audio equipment being employed, communications between the interviewer and analyst were not established until approximately 30 minutes into the session. At that timed the analyst directed the interviewer to focus #01's attention on the oscilloscope/TV screen like device which had already been mentioned by #01 in a preceding unsolicited part of his spontaneous general description. 1,SJF71n t '7_. L ~1 C! .r D ON ON R -XTE% 11-D BY Approved For Release 20C&G7P: 96-OWERBRO002005,20 IONAL3 ~4 1 0 _ff~ Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0200520001-3 %OPP" 5. (S/NOFORN) A thorough verbal debriefing was conducted immediately after session completiont during which #01 made pencil sketches. Upon completion of.the pencil sketches, an upcoming RV session required vacating the facility. #01 was escorted to the Administrative Office area by the analyst, was isolated in the rear conference area, and was allowed to trace his original sketches using ink. These finished sketches were inspectedby the analyst immediately on completion. All additions suggested by the analyst consisted of additional labeling of sketch portions for purposes of clarity. All such additions were made by #01 in his own hand. 6. (S/NOFORN) After completion of the entire session, to include final tracing of the sketches, the analyst recalled one area of possibly meaningful data which had not been sketched in as great a detail as could have been accomplished. #01 had drawn a clear sketch of the upper cubicle (sketch #4) and a "blow-up" of the ",oscilloscope" type device (sketch #5) but had not drawn a "blow-up" of the entire control panel.in which the oscilloscope device was located. Upon realizing the potential value of such a sketch, the analyst requested #01 return to the rear of the Administrative area and provide a detailed sketch of the entire control panel. During the interim (between sketch sequences) #01.had received not repeat no data feedback regarding the nature of this targetq and had only received verbal accolades regarding apparent high resolution, highly.apparent correlation,. and the relayed amazement of both the analyst and the Branch Chief. At no time during the interim period was #01 informed of the target ID or true nature of the target object. Care was taken to insure the post-script sketch (#7) contained only data originally provided either.in.sketchs #4 and 5 or during verbal portions of the session/debriefing. L KENNETH V. BE L i~~ Analyst 2 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0200520001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : -CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0200520001-3 . i1v fo 0 Q)I ,016"P e~w ca#~ SOY COAirg"L AA rk" CP ;j V_ PCAVILq IAPAPMEd_'~ Af6P t4", CrAx (8AIIc Up ?.f a JAJd J7 1A)s Ot-4770A Aamogcw ej~-,qIA AcQuiSIT70j S7E4T_ D to fj(P AgrA6.1ar DA I Vtx coop Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0200520001-3 Approvedfor Release 2000/08/07':,CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0200520001-3 or re'ticle Of06, 46 ix" U0000 Ito W 155 7e; it 95, ~40 ELM 19 "wows meow jamm"m ROD i0i77~TX OJL AcMom~o ,44cAr -D Zia) TVA VOIpAt . 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