Approved For Release A 2000/O3ffl,8`!C;1PV-RDP96-OO788 ROO 1900610001-5 TRANSCRIPT HU-1078/8404/63 #66: #63: #66: #63: #66: This will be a CENTER LANE Interview for 1430 hours, 11 April 1984. Okay you're now going to be focusing your attention an the individual in the photograph that I've provided you. We're focusing on a specific time window of 20 April 1984. We basically are going to want to know where he is , how is he and who captured him. .......... Desperate ....... desperate. Focusing first on describing his location to me, 20 April 1984. Gray ... and dry, man made buildings ........ flat roofs. All right. You're obviously skipping into a stage 4 matrix, let's force ourselves into structure here. Declare those things in their proper columns. rn 0 -RDP96-00788RO01 900610001-5 Approved For Release 20 7777177 ENT Approved For Release 2000/UVQU'4jfiqRDP96-OO788 ROO 1900610001-5 #63: Okay, my AI is when I look at the picture, the AI break, --it's sorrow. I think that's all I should need to get into stage four. #66: All right. #63: 1 get another sheet of paper. #66: Some of the things you that you've written there should have been declared as Stage 4. #63: Um, um. #66: So stay in that structure as best we can. #63: ...Stage 2---is gray, stage 2 --- is dry, tangible is --- man made buildings, tangible--flat roofs . ..... #66: Dimensional--flat, tangible-- roofs? #63: Um, um. Dimensional--is flat. ..... Sketch--high ground tapering down to the water. City is right here. Tangible --- distance, question mark (?), 50 something miles from there to the water. #66: Indicating city to water? Approved For Release 2000 Al P_QA_QQ7R8ROO1 900610001-5 Approved For Release 2000/08/08 CIA-RDP96-00788ROO1900610001-5 #63 Right, city to water. 57 is what came to mind. ...... Tangibles---flat roofs, sketch--flat roof with (mumble) sections along the side, (mumble) some type roofs, (mumble) and stuff. #66: Say to me what you're working on. #63: 20 April 84, where is he. #66: All right. #63: Tangible--is inside building. #66: Dimensional--inside, tangible-- building. #63: Dimensional--inside. Stage 2 --- is bright. Intangible --- is (metro-light)? Dimensional --is high ceiling. #66: Dimensional --is high, tangible--ceiling. #63: Tangible--ceiling. Dimensional--is large, tangible is hallway. Stage 2 --is bright , tangible --- is CAL Approved For Release 2000/O9bPt'%_-WD_ P96-00788 ROO 1900610001-5 3 O"ftnr,r Approved For Release 2000K OLLF r_1 96-00788ROO1900610001-5 light. Stage 2--dark, tangible--floors, tangible--doorway, tangible--room, intangible--old, tangible--building, intangible ........ confusion break. #66: Very good discipline. Declare the confusion. #63: Building is no longer used by the people it was originally built for. Intangible--- has a school house feeling. Intangible--abandoned, tangible--are people, stage 2, dimensional--AI, EI, (mumble). #66: As you bring your attention to focus, declare verbally what you're after. #63: 20 April 84, where is he. ......... Dimensional --five, tangibie--people. This is just narrative. It's not five people we're looking for. It's him and other people. But there's other people, there's some inside the room with him and some outside, so it's not like they're all in the same room. #66: Are you declaring a confusion break? Approved For Release 2000/0 DP96-00788RO01 900610001-5 ME U Ia L Approved For Release 201MWIU~WQP96-00788 ROO 1900610001-5 #63: No, I'm just declaring a differentiation between the, I don't know where to put it, so I'm going to put in over in the AOL column. #66: Okay. #63: All the people we're looking for. #66: AOL break. #63: AOL break. #66: Now, what is it? This is not all the people we're looking for? #63: Right. I said five people, I think we're looking for five people. #66: Yes. #63: But that's, I seeing him in a room with a couple other people in the room with him and couple people outside the room, so analysis says, well the people, the other people like him wouldn't be outside the room, they'd be locked up. Approved For Release 2000/0, 6-00788ROO1900610001-5 4-9~~ Approved For Release IA-RDP96-00788ROO1900610001-5 Awe'l, #66: So you term five people that you sensed but you're not saying that those are the five missing people. #63: Right. #66: All right. #63: So not all the people we're looking for. #66: Okay. #63: Okay, tangible--people inside room, tangible-- people outside room. #66: Inside and outside are dimensionals. #63: Dimensional--inside, dimensional--is outside, dimensionals--three people inside, dimensional --two people outside, dimensional--is high ceiling, tangible--ceiling, Stage 2--is light blue, white, sketch--haliway, doorway, room, door man'is right here, corner, another person here, and another person here and two persons here. #66: Indicating two 11Xs11 inside and two 11Xs11 outside? Approved For Release 2000/08/ 496-00788R001 900610001 -5 6 Approved For Release 200V?".P1 rm-RDP96-00788 ROO `1900610001-5 AJ-LU!1WL__V_ #63: Right And our man is the circle in the corner. ........ Tangible --is part of building damaged, ..... Stage 2--is white, tangible-- is building. #66: I'd like to encour.age you to move your perceptions outside, like you Ive done and pick up some distinguishing characteristics of the building. #63: That's what I think I'll do now. Stage 2 , dimensional, AI, EI, TI, AOL, AOL signal. #66: Okay. Again I'll ask you to verbalize your target acquisition when you begin. #63: 20 April 84, where is he. ...... Dimensionals --tall, tangibles--building, stage 2--is white, intangible--damaged, sketch -- tangible--is road, tangible--is building, tangible-is damaged section. AOL break -- It's clear around the building, it's like one of the few buildings remaining in the area. There's rubble and other things around it, along, all the way around the building, So AOL-- is lone building. #66: Do I hear you saying lone building in a damaged area? s% r Approved For Release 2000/08/00L,40-:11t tAIMUMM-00788 ROO 1900610001-5 7 Approved For Release 200$,.,Q,,,.WVRDP96-OO788 ROO 1900610001-5 #63: Um, um. In a damaged area. A portion of this building is damaged. #66: 1 think it's appropriate now that we move on to the movement exercise as associated with this building. #63: Okay. Stage 2-- is green, dimensional --- is fiat, ...... Sketch --- this is our building. There's a road along here, rubble around here and back here quite a ways, many buildings. And there are roads going through here. Abandoned area. #66: Intangible? #63: Um, um, intangible. ..... And this is the, majority of the city is over here. Okay. #66: Okay, the first of the movement exercises, I would like you to call this the site of 20 April 84 and for the movement exercise, move north of this location, north of this location is something which describable. #63: .......... Sketch--- our building, the road. Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788ROO1900610001-5 8 r n n rir Approved For Release 2000/OQU3,,PMj-W96-OO788 ROO 1900610001-5 #66: 11X11 indicating our building? #63: Okay, I had a little square. #66: Okay, square indicating- #63: Square's indicating our building. This is north. It's high ground here, very high. Dimensional- This is city. This area out here--- intangible is middle of nowhere. #66: Okay, can you verbalize a little bit more than the wave of your hand which I didn't understand. #63: This rubbled area that I drew on page 6. #66: The abandoned area in and around- #63: Right, is away the city, like it was a new area of the city that was being built , but it I s all been damaged, so everybody had to leave and go back to the city again. And our building is there. #66: Okay. All right , so do I understand you say that north of our location is city? Approved For Release 2000/0810 W-MP - 0788R001900610001-5 9 Approved For Release 20 8 : CIA-RDP96-00788ROO1900610001-5 8 0 & nr #63: From the building, northwest, northeast, excuse me, I northeast of our building is the city. And just above the city is a rugged, high ground area. #66: All right. Is there dimensionals on that. #63: ....... You can see the city-- dimensional- 7 miles, and the mountains are beyond that, but you can see those over the city, 25 miles. #66: Okay, those AOL distances or are they dimensional? #63: Best guess distances. #66: Okay, I would say those are,AOLs as opposed to signal line. #63: Yeah , these are analytical, yeah there are analytical dimensionals. #66: Analytical dimensionals, okay. The true information that I can depend upon, would be that ,if I stood at my building I can the city over there and I could see the mountains behind it. 7 Approved For Release 2""'~ I DP96-00788ROO1900610001-5 1'b Approved For Release 200WIkC IA-RDP96-00788 ROO 1900610001-5 #63: Um, um. #66: Okay, let's try another movement exercise then. #63: Okay, that was page 7 for the north. #66: Yes. Let's move now east of the the location. #63: Page 8, east of site. Figure out which way is east. #66: What's your system, figure out which is east, you just tell yourseif to go after it. #63: East of site, 20 April 84. #66: That's correct, just go on automatic. #63: ...... Dry, barren area ....... #66: Watch your structure here. #63: .......... Stage 2, dimensional, AI, EI, TI, AOL, AOL signal. Dimensional--- is flat, rolling, tangible-- is land, stage 2--- is dry, intangible --is barren. Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788ROO1900610001-5 11 Approved For Release 200QMMIpm-RDP96-00788ROO1900610001-5 #66: That's good structure. #63: Stage 2 --is brown , yellow, intangible -- is large area, ........ intangible --- is border. #66: Intangible is? #63: Border. #66: All right. #63: To put that in context, it's just a fiat, rolling, barren area and it just keeps going for a great distance, and then I feel there's a border of some kind between countries or between something. #66: All right. #63: And that's east of site. That's page 8. #66: Let's make another movement then. By acquiring the original site, then let's move south of site. Watch your structure. #63: Stage, dimensional, AI, EI, TI, AOL, AOL signal. ..... Tangible-- is land, stage 2 -- is bright, Approved For Release 2000/08/08 iPIA- 96-00788R001 900610001-5 Approved For Release 20 RDP96-00788RO01 900610001-5 yellow, brown, tangibles --- is cliffs, stage 2 -- is dry, intangible-- is rugged, sketch --- dimensional--- is fiat area, dimensional-- is flat, tangible --is valley, dimensional--- is high, tangible-- cliffs, AOL break--limestone, AOL signal --- limestone, stage 2 -- is hard porous, yellowish, dry, dimensional- - - is large similar area, that's south of site. #66: Okay , south of site, what was the last thing you said? #63: Large, similar area. #66: Okay, nothing descriptive there, many of the things are all the same there? #63: Um, um. There's cliffs and valleys, yellowish, crusty, soil, like limestone. #66: All right. #63: That was page 9. Approved For Release 2000/08/08 CIA-RDP96-00788ROO1900610001-5 13 Approved For Release 200OMWOB 01-RDP96-00788 ROO 1900610001-5 #66: Okay , let I s move into the west of the site , the site of interest on the 20th of April 84, and now move west of the site. #63: Tangible --is water, sketch ---- X is our building. Circular area is high ground, Large square is city. Shoreline runs generally northwest to southeast. Northwest, large X area is where the population is sticking along the shore. West ot' our building . ...... Dimensional --is considerable, dimensional -- is distance, tangible-- is shore, tangible --- is water . .......... And this comes back this way,....tangible--is water. (mumble). #66: Okay, in distance you call now considerable. Okay that's fine. #63: That's the best I can do. #66: You're saying definitely that is not a shoreline town, shoreline city. #63: Right. #66: It's a considerable distance to the water. ~O % IT* _fca- rel - n Approved For Release 2000/08/08 CtA-R 0788ROO1900610001-5 14 Approved For Releas-PR - ~GjjK-T1A -RDP96-00788RO01 900610001-5 - OILURLX~ #63: Analysis, 50 to 75 miles. #66: You get that kind of big chunks of distances? #63: Um, um. #66: Okay, let's take a two minute break. #63: Break. #66: We're ready to start again, and this time we're going to use the picture and we're going after now, how is he, describing his physical and psychological condition. #63: How is he, 20 April 84. This is page 11. ....... ........ Miss break . ...... EI --- is tired, EI-- is sore . ....... AOL break ---- pain in right side, nervous, tangible -- is alive , EI --- is waiting, ...... EI --- is weak . ......... (mumble) #66: Okay. #63: 1 don't know how much of that was AOL and how much was analysis, necessarily AOL, but analysis or not, but I know, I've got a definite feeling he is alive. Approved For Release 2000/08MU-~.e"M -00788R001 900610001-5 1 PIZ Approved. For Release 2000/08". nn"P96-00788RO01 900610001-5 #66: All right. #63: Which is about the best I can tell you. #66: That's fine. Okay let's move on then to the last question. #63: Page 12. #66: Which is who captureahim and let's talk for just a minute here. We're wanting you to describe the responsible parties. #63: Who can help get him back and to us. #66: Yes, yes. Who do we see to get him back, who are the responsible parties? #63: ..... Break. #66: Let's watch your structure. #63: Confusion break--- The confusion is many different types of people at once. Intangible -- is organized, intangible- is official ......... Stage Approved For Release 200Q"M6V-T -RDP96-00788ROO1900610001-5 16 Approved For Release 200M8jqtjjW-RDP96-OO788 ROO 1900610001-5 2, dimensional, AI, EI, TI, AOL, AOL signal. In response to the question, who can we see to get him back. Dimensional -- is large, stage 2--- is brown, tangible --- is building, ...tnagible -- is blocked shaped, intangible- is embassy. Dimensional -- is location, the big X area of population, large X area, more population. #66: Can you show me that on that page? #63: On page 10. #66: Indicating the upper left corner in the sketch on page 10. #63: Right. If I divide this into fourths, this embassy is in area with.a number 1 marked, it's in that area, about center of the way. #66: Lower left quadrant of the city? #63: Yes. #66: Okay. Approved For Release 2000/09j)b6--7F&MRDP96 -00788 ROO 1900610001-5 17 FT Approved For Release 2000JqJ-JQPjrJ&1&--KDP96-OO788 ROO 1900610001-5 #63: Tangible--- people, stage 2--- black , tangible -- is hair, dimensional -- is short , short hair , tangible -- is hair, dimensional, AI, EI, TI, AOL, AOL signal. The people who have him now has short, black hair, dimensional -- is short, stage 2 -- is black, tangible -- is hair. #66: We're dealing with the people that have him now, not necessarily the people to go to see? #63: Right. Stage 2 --- is light, tangible -- clothes, ...... AOL break --- like soldiers. What I mean by that is they're not in charge, they're just, they're way down the ladder. They're people who are holding him now are way down the ladder, they're just told to do so. #66: All right. #63: ......... Intangible -- is foreign, tangible -- language . ....... That's it. #66: Okay. #63: End. #66: Okay, very good. We'll end there and the time is 15?4 Approved For R61ease 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788ROO1900610001-5 0 r n ON-VVP 1u LMAM