Approved For Release 2000IGoW ig;8RO01 900670002-8 WORKING PAPER TRANSCRIPT HU-1085/8406/01 #66: This will be a CENTER LANE Interview for 0900 hours 2 May 1984. Following is a pre-interview briefing. I want to show you some pictures that you've seen before, here of an area that you' ve described previously. #01: Oh, yeah, the junk room. #66: Junk room, okay. Now, what we want to do today is we want to go back to the junk room in the same during the same time that we were there before and that would be on th 15th of March 1984, between midnight and 3:00 o'clock in the morning. Now, there is certain traffic that we know that goes into that room. People come in there to do things that we know about. The situation is by what doors do they gain access to those rooms. Now, one of those pictures has a door in it. #01: Two of them. #66: That's the same door is it not? HOOT RELEASABLE 10 FUFZIGN NATIONA14 Approved For Release 2000/08/0? _r__1r=r,00670002-8 L.~ %;rrv=%Jv " Approved For Release 00788R001 900670002-8 #01: No, and a door there. #66: Okay. #01: And you get a door there. #66: Okay , the door in picture is actually to a little vault there, inside there. #01: Okay. #66: So it's not an entrance to the area. #01: Oh9 I see, okay. #66: And the door in picture #14-- #01: 14-- #66: --picture #14 is not a secure door, it's just like a hallway door-- #01: --A door going out in the hall. #66: Okay. But that whole area is accessible by several Im T Approved For Release 200UMWW: nA RM -60788R001 900670002-8 2 Approved For ReleaseA44&~-00788ROO1900670002-8 ways, the area in general, right? #01: Okay. #66: And so what we want to do is we want you to go through each of the people that come into that area between midnight and 3:00 in the morning on the 15th of March. Go through each of the people that enter that area and describe the route that they take in getting to that area. #06: Okay. Now they may be the similar route, they may be different routes. #01: Okay. #66: Okay, 1' 11 give you a few minutes now to prepare yourself. Put the tape recorder on. Relax and concentrate now. Relax, relax, relax. Relax and focus your attention solely and completely on the room in the photograph I' ve shown you and describe the activities of 15 March 1984, 15 March 1984. #01: 1 got ah..guy in a.... black suit with an overcoat. He' s getting off an elevator. see him walking up a short flight of steps ....... turning Approved For Release 200"M&.%U*RMj64O788 ROO 1900670002-8 3 Approved For Release 2000/,(0" 4^*AT-1%1.1~%luul-%ool900670002-8 ~ qw, L. %J F right and going through a door, then going through another doorway where the door is already open into that room. ....... He' s got a clip board and he' s checking things off. ..... Cleaning on top of the cabinets of some kind of papers. .... He doing a ah... inventory. Inventory of safe in the corner and opening it. Now he is leaving. He's going out a different way, he's going through the other room in the front. Seems to be going from room to room. .... Now, he's met somebody else and they're talking. ..... They're leaving that room together, making a right turn and walking down a short hallway to a .... door and they're going through that door, . . . and then in a larger room, feels like it' s outside the area though. And then they're looking at a door, it's a door ...... talking and ....... the guy in the black is leaving and the, the other guy through the door and back to the other room. He's typing something on a paper. Sitting at a desk that's shaped in a 11L11 shape. .......... And there's the other guy's ah ....... I don't know if this guy's before or after the others. ........ Having trouble with this, it's like ah .... feel like I'm looking at him upright, but then I'm feeling like I'm looking down on him. 0 (7 rN 0 r-"r Approved For Release 20UV.4&4,A;QWW ~YffWZJ4~.;=-(AP t ts8RO01 900670002-8 4 Approved For Release2S&4- R-JJ4-00788ROO1900670002-8 #66: Take a moment to focus, I will wait. #01: .......................... Get impression like he's on all fours, with his upper torso in a box and a ........ looks like he's crawling into something or crawling out of something. .... He's wearing dark brown coveralls and he's standing up and it's like a ..... storage area or something. He's brushing his hands off and he's .... looking around. Light's very dim and he's walking about .... ten paces straight ahead, turns to the right. ..... The guy' s in a hallway after he makes his right, he' s in a hall. And he turns right into another area and on his immediate right is a door and he goes through that door ... and the door' s already open, it' s like blocked open. #66: Describe like blocked open. #01: ... Um..impression of something wedged, cardboard wedge is under the edge, . . . something -to do with ventilation, heat or.. cooling or some, something to do with air circulation. #66: 1 don't understand (mumble). - - `4% - Approved For 00788R001900670002-8 5 Approved For Release 2SOF. ~--00788 ROO 1900670002-8 #01: Um .... ah ....... The door' s open, it' s locked, but this thing, cardboard to ke,ep it open. #66: Okay. Go on. #01: And he makes a left and then he' s in the room, that same room. #66: He goes through some door that has got a piece of cardboard in it to hold it open and after he goes through that door, he's in the room in que~stion? #01: Um..yes, but he makes a left when he does it. #66: Okay. Now, is this the same door that the other people came into? #01: Ah .... yeah, there's ah ... except this guy came from the.. 180 direction of the other man, some kind of a small square that he ... was in. Ah ... I- #66: Okay, do I understand that you said he approached the room area frog the opposite direction of the other two? #01: Ah, yes. Approved For Release 20ORP&QR e6- 788ROO1900670002-8 6 Approved For Release 00788ROO 1900670002-8 = %~_---.~;-- W #66: And as he approached that, he went, crawled through a small square something. #01: He either crawled into it or out of it, I, it's hard to tell. #66: Okay. But his approach to the room area was from the opposite side of the room? #01: yes. #66: All right. Now, describe in as much detail as you can the door with the cardboard, things associated around it, the walls. #01: Just a minute. #66: I'll will wait. #01: ...................... Ah. . I think it opens outward into open air. Has a slanted roof as you' re standing facing it. Ah...it's like (mumble) standing two steps down, on the edge of the door and it's got a slanted roof over the head. There's ah.. Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788ROO1900670002-8 7 Approved For Releasim IF96-00788RO01 900670002-8 MW #66: Okay, as you approach the door, you are at a lower level than the door, is that what you mean? #01: It's like, yeah, if you go up some steps to it. #66: All right. #01: And it pushes out with a bar, like - a breaker bar. Metal like, light color or ah, very pale green or grayish green color. It ah... stand in front of it, I feel like P m very close to a wall on both sides. There's a metal conduit running across the ceiling to the top edge of the door and down the left side of the door. ..... There' s a light switch to the right, door opens from the left to right, (mumble) out . #66: Okay. It pushes to an area that you feel is outside like? #01: Is out, outside, but it feels like it' s covered in some way. #66: Okay. #01: You have to make two steps up to the door, V m not ---~0788 ROO 1900670002-8 Approved For Release 2000=08108 ~-, - ~~ 8 Approved For ReleaseajV* 00788ROO1900670002-8 sure about the wall on the right, but it' s very close to the wall on the left. #66: Okay. #01: It's got a window. #66: The wall to the left has a window like thing in it? #01: That's correct. #66: Okay. Then you get more of an outside feeling when you go through the door from the room of interest, out this door, you get an outside feeling when you go there, you get a step feeling, and you get a slanted ceiling or roof feeling. #01: Yes, like an angle in the roof. #66: All right. #01: Something covering it, it's outside, but there's something covering it. #66: All right. e~% aia q Q Val Approved For Release 200dyoM=:'dA!-Rbft-6O788 ROO 1900670002-8 9 A." moo= e% L: C " I Approved For Release,& &AJMIM§I-00788R001 900670002-8 #01: 1 got a feeling of ah ... ah... narrowness or a closeness. #66: Okay. #01: Feels like it just keeps getting more narrow. #66: The closed in narrow, more confining feeling? #01: Yes. #66: Okay. I want to change your focus now a little bit. #01: Okay. #66: You said on this door that there was a conduit on the top of the door leading down the left side? #01: Um, um. #66: Where does it go on the top of the door? #01: ............... Goes to a gun metal gray box that' s ah ... just 7 inches wide, 4 high high, 3 inches deep. #66: What do you mean it goes to it? Approved For Release 2000/08108 . S"-Viol '88R001900670002-8 T 10 Approved For Release.QC;fin%2 VS3; 6-00788ROO1900670002-8 #01: It's mounted on the wall. #66: Okay. Describe what you mean by the cable, the conduit goes to this box. #01: Just to the box that's mounted on the wall. #66: It goes to the box mounted on the wall. Okay. Go inside the conduit and describe what's inside the conduit. #01: Ah ...... two sets of two pair of wires. #66: Go down the wires towards the box mounted and describe. #01: ......... I get ah .... see a roll of wire or it's all coiled up in a corner and there's ah-little green board with a only ah, what I see, at some (mumble). #66: Okay. On the wires leading to the box, do a continuity check. Approved For Release 20004" T-T 4;;,-,-Tr08R001900670002-8 Approved For Rele '6r"46-00788RO01 900670002-8 #01: ...... It's ah ... it continual current. There's always continual current here ...... just slips through. #66: Do a continuity check on all the combinations of the wires leading. #01: ............. Not always continual, there's interruptions. #66: Okay. Let' s change your perspective now. Get out of the box and face the door with the cardboard in it. #01: Okay. #66: Okay, now grab on to the piece of cardboard and follow it til, Itil it originated there. Tell me how, when and who put it there. #01: ........... The guy that sits at the desk for the day. Ah ... it's been done many times, something to do with false light or something. (mumble) I get a picture of a metal box with a light blinking, they're putting the cardboard there stops the light from blinking. P Approved For Release 2000/0116900M MR-OW6,06788RO01 900670002-8 12 Approved For Release 20MICnr- ~..-"-&;PT-00788ROO1900670002-8 1% %OWN #66: Okay I don' t understand what you mean by the guy at the desk. #01: Same guy earlier that typed the paper, sitting at a 11L11 shaped in a room, outside the room of interest. #66: All right, I understand. If I have understood you correctly, the guy who sits at the "L'' shaped desk, typed on the forms, he puts this piece of cardboard in there to stop a flashing light? #01: Um, um. #66: And it's the usual thing, that's the way he gets rid of the light? #01: Yes, that's correct. #66: Okay. #01: He and others, he's not the only one, there's other people. #66: Okay, let' s go back to the door and the door with the conduit and the little box above the door. Approved For Release 788ROO1900670002-8 13 Approved For Release 20QD n-lD q nn788ROO1900670002-8 --qRW Facing the box direct on, ask yourself , ask of yourself of your greater knowledge, is there anything amiss about the box? #01: ................... Ah. sometimes it doesn' t and sometimes it does. I only see ah ..... some kind of a ah ... I don' t know, it has to do with black thing, a black attachment, goes on the other side of the door on the wall. I can' t tell if it' s there all the time or if it is there when it' s not working or if it's there when it's working. #66: If I understand then, when you ask yourself the question, is there anything amiss about the box, you don' t see anything particularly wrong with the box, but you find that it do6sn't work from time to time and that maybe associated with something on the other side of the door. #01: That's correct. I see a square of black. #66: Okay. I have no further questions about the area, but I would like you to take a few minutes now to explore beyond the confines of my questions and to Approved For Release 2000M/ff= ff&Z788RO01 900670002-8 1 A Approved For Release 2000/084n. rr-" "001900670002-8 Naf I % %no - 11 review in your mind, your perceptions where I will now ask you to draw a simple floor diagram where these doors are. I will wait while you do this. #01: ...... 4..................... Okay. #66: Okay, if you'll wait just a minute, I want to get some directions from the control room here. Just speak up and say again. Okay. First of all, do you have anything else to report on your own exploration? #01: No, I'm just having a little difficulty holding this picture very much longer. #66: Okay. #01: Where everything is. #66: Okay. I want to try to do after a little bit more information- #01: There's ah .... there is one thing. #66: Okay. Approved For Release 2000/08/08 CIA-RDP96-00788ROO1900670002-8 15 a 1; Cz Q 1--r Approved For Release 20007UPIRF-c~4;hP Oh8ROO1900670002-8 #01: 1 can't identify it with anything, but I get a feeling of walking across like bridge wire or arch like and getting to the building, like a tight rope walk or walking along something narrow. #66: Okay. #01: You know, just a flash picture of that. #66: Okay. Now, this man who, in the brown coverall suit, came through the door that had the cardboard? #01: Ummm, I didn't say that. #66: Well, see if you can't straighten me out. #01: He came from the opposite side of the area, he came from way the other side. #66: Okay. I understood you to say that this door that was open that had the cardboard stuck in it, was the door that the man with the brown coveralls came through? #01: No, I not sure. 0" Approved For Release 2000/gov- 1~-R.11;~~6-00788 ROO 1900670002-8 16 Approved For.Release -~~%0788RO01900670002-8 00~~ #66: Okay. #01: First place, first place, I have this male that' s crawling through something. #66: That's correct. #01: Or in something. #66: Okay. 1 think that we better end here because you are obviously are losing the perceptions you' ve had of the target and before we lose the floor plan and have you mix it all up, I want to end here, so you can sketch it for me. 11. Approved For Release 200-- 11"'i"n "8ROO1900670002-8 4 17 0"% r- r* EirwpT Approved For Release 2000/0 7t8ROO1900670002-8 DRAWING EXPLANATION Hu-1085/8406/01 #01: Okay. On the drawing I drew the location of the elevators where the first man came up a set of, then went to the left, went up a set steps, went through an entry door. And if you followed the dotted line, it' s the path he took, I til he talked to the second man denoted by a 112". That's the same guy that was typing the paper. He and the second guy came out in this dimly lit area, this other room and went around and stopped discussed two doorways and the second doorway is the one I talked about. And the second guy went back in,his room and the other guy left by the same way he came in. Now the path of the second guy is denoted by dots. And I put a star on the drawing where I believe the crawl area to be, because that' s where I saw the guy, like he was either crawling into or crawling out of something. And this third guy in the coveralls then went into, and what I should do is ah-- #66: Okay, now, you said before that the crawl area that you indicated may or may not be in the drawing itself. #01: Yeah, I wanted to finish what I was saying first. After the crawl area then he went to the room in the pictures. #66: Okay. #01: Okay? Now that' s as far as I had him going any where. But then I had him outside the door of interest. Now, I have a 50, 50 feel that that' s where I put the little star, is actually where the crawl way area is. #66: Um, um. #01: If it' s not there, then it' s not on this picture, it's somewhere else. #66: Okay. #01: But I also, I have him in a crawl way and then in the room in the pictures , but then I have him outside the door, but I can' t honestly put him from one place to the other through the areas. Approved For Release 2000/08/08: CIA-RD 01900670002-8 Q CY"'11PRE!r -m7rT_- -,w- I % L. I _o E7fN i - C~T Approved For Release 200'U/,, t;Poj.L4~ituvzwuw88 ROO 1900670002-8 #66: Let me-- #01: It's like he went to two places, but not through the areas of interest. #66: Okay, let me ah, let me see if I understand. You have three separate and distinct images about where this guy is. One image relates to crawling through something, a separate image in going through the door which we spent so much time discussing and the third is in the room in the photographs I've shown you. Are those to be separate? #01: That's correct. That's correct. #66: Okay. And how and why and the in betweens of those are-- #01: --Beats So. the hell out of me. #66: Okay, what more can you tell me about this door down here that you asterisks? #01: Just that sometimes this box works and sometimes it don' and I think it has to do with modification t or somet hing to reduce a blinking light or something like that,I don't know. #66: Okay. #01: That's it. #66: Okay, fine. Approved For Release 2000&8/ff-. == 88R001900670002-8 %fto %=W %0 1 % LOW I Approved For Release 2000/08/08 CIA-RDP96-00788ROO1900670002-8 qL ca &L to 0 X ILE 41 sop Approved For Release 2000/08/08 CIA-RDP96-00788ROO1900670002-8